tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4968787219619380438.post8929310974110426039..comments2023-09-21T04:02:29.457-04:00Comments on Skeptical Scalpel: Surgery in space: I foresee problems.Skeptical Scalpelhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/13206922456661320751noreply@blogger.comBlogger23125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4968787219619380438.post-76294079983444319492014-07-29T23:32:17.955-04:002014-07-29T23:32:17.955-04:00I believe so. They would need to bootstrap all the...I believe so. They would need to bootstrap all the required knowledge. No question, I'd NOT like to be the one that is being operated... That is why the concept of remote telesurgery was so much favored by NASA. As long as the technology makes it feasible. T.https://www.blogger.com/profile/05106336058843921755noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4968787219619380438.post-44962559991201760382014-07-28T10:03:05.611-04:002014-07-28T10:03:05.611-04:00T, thanks. Your comment made me wonder if the astr...T, thanks. Your comment made me wonder if the astronauts have to do a time out before they operate on each other.Skeptical Scalpelhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13206922456661320751noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4968787219619380438.post-36165930609075835712014-07-28T08:56:23.876-04:002014-07-28T08:56:23.876-04:00I believe all crew members receive a basic medical...I believe all crew members receive a basic medical training on ground. Then there is telementoring/teleproctoring to guide them through the emergency procedure. It is not an ideal solution, sure, but there are all these rule of procedures for emergencies (reading out loud and following hundreds of bullet points...) T.https://www.blogger.com/profile/05106336058843921755noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4968787219619380438.post-40611827889871159022014-07-23T08:00:50.009-04:002014-07-23T08:00:50.009-04:00T, I don't follow your reasoning. What is the ...T, I don't follow your reasoning. What is the first backup for your "trained medical assistant" in space?Skeptical Scalpelhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13206922456661320751noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4968787219619380438.post-87231748037366957482014-07-22T17:46:48.099-04:002014-07-22T17:46:48.099-04:00I believe it leads to the same scenario when the h...I believe it leads to the same scenario when the human surgeon gets injured: you have to provide a backup option, then backup for a backup, etc. until the probability of system failure is low enough...NASA is good with this! T.https://www.blogger.com/profile/05106336058843921755noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4968787219619380438.post-58252169594780367702014-07-22T10:02:24.331-04:002014-07-22T10:02:24.331-04:00T, thanks again for the links.
Of course there is...T, thanks again for the links.<br /><br />Of course there is no mention of what might happen if the robotic surgeon or anesthesiologist breaks or malfunctions, accidental laceration of an organ occurs, or who would treat a complication.<br /><br /> It will be interesting to see how all of this turns out.Skeptical Scalpelhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13206922456661320751noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4968787219619380438.post-66025527105992608942014-07-22T07:09:40.326-04:002014-07-22T07:09:40.326-04:00Hi there,
Robotic anesthesia is on the way: first...Hi there, <br />Robotic anesthesia is on the way: first links here http://surgrob.blogspot.hu/2010/10/cis-news.html<br />Rehabilitation robotics is also emerging: http://www.ieee-ras.org/rehabilitation-robotics<br />The idea there could be to have a universal mechatronic system that can be used for various purposes. (The U.Nebraska approach is different.)<br />Supplies is a great problem, for sure! As it was cited before, "the medical equipment for a Mars mission is estimated to weight 500 kg, filling up 4 m3." <br />But I have to admit, we can not imagine a human mission without a trained medical assistant on board, but you simply cannot have anyone trained as an astronaut, engineer, scientist AND physician. That is why I have long been an advocate of robotics space exploration missions.T.https://www.blogger.com/profile/05106336058843921755noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4968787219619380438.post-17790653692716368742014-07-21T07:54:43.578-04:002014-07-21T07:54:43.578-04:00T, thanks for the links. Very interesting and wort...T, thanks for the links. Very interesting and worth reading. What about anesthesia, recovery, supplies, etc?Skeptical Scalpelhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13206922456661320751noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4968787219619380438.post-32758524012385051022014-07-20T04:52:10.485-04:002014-07-20T04:52:10.485-04:00NASA is well aware of the numerous problems arisin...NASA is well aware of the numerous problems arising with space surgery, yet it focuses on RnD that _may_ enable one day the handling of surgical issues on board of a space craft. See our previous reports: http://surgrob.blogspot.hu/2009/04/robotic-surgery-in-space-iii.html <br />If you consider the conditions on the International Space Station e.g., latency is not an issue. Microgravity is, so closed-compatment surgical boxes are also in consideration: http://surgrob.blogspot.hu/2012/09/space-surgery-possible-with-zero.html <br />Further, simulators are getting a LOT better these days (http://surgrob.blogspot.hu/2014/06/cis-news.html), and numerous studies have shown that 100% realistic representation of the organs is not necessary for effective skill maintenance (although, initial training depends a lot on it.)<br />So do not expect today's prototypes to provide complete solutions, yet these developments should lead to proper tool in 8-10 years. T.https://www.blogger.com/profile/05106336058843921755noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4968787219619380438.post-11882968037633498302014-07-15T07:40:33.484-04:002014-07-15T07:40:33.484-04:00Anon, thanks for the comments. I hadn't though...Anon, thanks for the comments. I hadn't thought of it but you may be right. It's hard to believe that NASA scientists haven't considered some of the points I raised. Maybe they think it's better to delude the general public by creating this fantasy of astronauts operating on each other.Skeptical Scalpelhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13206922456661320751noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4968787219619380438.post-49978679183888864782014-07-14T21:43:21.119-04:002014-07-14T21:43:21.119-04:00What NASA never wants to discuss publicly is the s...What NASA never wants to discuss publicly is the scenario: If X happens then you die. They also don't like to discuss the plans for storage/disposal of a body. Thus they tend to publicly take a hardware approach to everything. Appendectomy? Robot surgery. Mysterious illness. Flyable imaging. etc.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4968787219619380438.post-85198809591952471432014-07-14T12:51:39.420-04:002014-07-14T12:51:39.420-04:00Rugger, I agree that an ED doc is not the answer a...Rugger, I agree that an ED doc is not the answer although it certainly better than trying to teach a pilot how to operate.<br /><br />Libby, I'm with you. If the robot malfunctions, good luck.<br /><br />Anon, I guess we will need 2 OR nurses too.Skeptical Scalpelhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13206922456661320751noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4968787219619380438.post-37370190356533437662014-07-14T12:35:39.998-04:002014-07-14T12:35:39.998-04:00I'm an OR nurse and would looove to be part a ...I'm an OR nurse and would looove to be part a surgical team to do surgery in space... SIGN ME UP!!Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4968787219619380438.post-67494244526608372782014-07-14T01:36:25.078-04:002014-07-14T01:36:25.078-04:00I'll take a pass on a robot being put inside m...I'll take a pass on a robot being put inside me. With my luck it would get stuck somewhere or malfunction. Oh happy happy joy joy. What if, like in real life, the case isn't as straight forward as believed? "Beam me down Scotty"!<br />I do however like the typo, having a robot doing the perferating, not sure where to go with this, but I do like a good typo.Libbyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09274573439351833726noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4968787219619380438.post-71846675201703290362014-07-13T19:43:05.238-04:002014-07-13T19:43:05.238-04:00When I was in fellowship, I met a resident who cha...When I was in fellowship, I met a resident who change to aerospace medicine and was down in Houston trying to become an astronaut.<br />We had the exact discussion as you stated above SS. <br />I said you would have to have a surgeon on board.<br />He told me that at that time NASA was contemplating having an ER physician as part of the crew and that doc would learn surgical procedures...which is still a horrible idea.<br />Not sure if this is true as well, but he told me that blood would pool and coalesce into a ball, much like water does in zero gravity.<br />For any amount of long time in space, you almost have to have a surgeon, and I would say one with critical care and acute care surgery training. We still can operate in the ICU without an anesthesiologist. <br />If they need me, I'm ready to go.RuggerMDnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4968787219619380438.post-29682952807080685682014-07-13T12:08:49.139-04:002014-07-13T12:08:49.139-04:00Anon, sorry that I missed your comment for a few d...Anon, sorry that I missed your comment for a few days. Why single-port surgery? Do you want the astronauts to develop incisional hernias? Who would fix them in space? :-)Skeptical Scalpelhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13206922456661320751noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4968787219619380438.post-53598700145049654042014-07-09T21:52:43.464-04:002014-07-09T21:52:43.464-04:00DD, thanks for the link. I'm a big fan of earl...DD, thanks for the link. I'm a big fan of early ambulatory, but that was a bit much. And no anesthesia. Also, they used staples for the skin, but what about the fascia? A study just came out that said sutures were better than staples for C sections, another type of transverse incision. Also, the study may be flawed because the obstetricians may have taken the staples out too soon. Skeptical Scalpelhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13206922456661320751noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4968787219619380438.post-51263948827516033512014-07-09T21:00:30.062-04:002014-07-09T21:00:30.062-04:00Hi SS, speaking of space surgery- If you saw the m...Hi SS, speaking of space surgery- If you saw the movie Prometheus (I think from 2012) it shows a female astronaut having abdominal surgery (spoiler, to remove an alien growing inside her) via a machine she programs and then gets inside of (here is the You Tube link: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LW4PH2ibdh4) Unrealistic on so many levels.DDnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4968787219619380438.post-25728317353662287772014-07-09T03:05:08.552-04:002014-07-09T03:05:08.552-04:00I'm sure that the medical examinations these a...I'm sure that the medical examinations these astronauts go through are highly rigorous, with only highly selected individuals eventually embarking on the trip. Additionally, for longer space flights: prophylactic single port lap appendicectomy + cholecystectomy may be a requirement. H. Pylori may be actively sought for and cleared prior to travel.<br /><br />The rest of us will just go when spaceships are large enough to have an OR and artificial gravity. :-)Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4968787219619380438.post-10764542734003403892014-07-08T22:04:54.663-04:002014-07-08T22:04:54.663-04:00Good question. As I mentioned, they will be testin...Good question. As I mentioned, they will be testing the mini robot in zero gravity. It will be interesting to see if you are right. Skeptical Scalpelhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13206922456661320751noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4968787219619380438.post-73384469981046498662014-07-08T22:01:05.836-04:002014-07-08T22:01:05.836-04:00If this space laparoscopy were attempted, I wonder...If this space laparoscopy were attempted, I wonder how much of a problem fluids and debris floating inside the abdominal cavity would pose. It could interfere with the procedure and even create unforeseen complications.<br /><br />I guess I'll postpone my Mars trip until they have nice big comfy space stations.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4968787219619380438.post-47216755224451835942014-07-08T20:31:35.454-04:002014-07-08T20:31:35.454-04:00Josh, I'm not sure about the early astronauts....Josh, I'm not sure about the early astronauts. Taking out the appendix and probably the gallbladder wouldn't be too difficult. I was going to mention that option in the post, but it was already too long. The problem would be if an astronaut had a perforated ulcer or other sudden catastrophe.Skeptical Scalpelhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13206922456661320751noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4968787219619380438.post-67170090090477053122014-07-08T11:53:14.347-04:002014-07-08T11:53:14.347-04:00I agree - horrible idea. Am I making this up or d...I agree - horrible idea. Am I making this up or didn't they do appendectomies on early astronauts? I would be pretty quick and easy to just take out the appendix and gallbladder of these guys before they leave.Joshnoreply@blogger.com