tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4968787219619380438.post2152123004000243067..comments2023-09-21T04:02:29.457-04:00Comments on Skeptical Scalpel: What's with pre-med students "shadowing a doctor"?Skeptical Scalpelhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/13206922456661320751noreply@blogger.comBlogger36125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4968787219619380438.post-76508780400542373792019-05-12T02:45:46.938-04:002019-05-12T02:45:46.938-04:00As a patient, this thread has been eye-opening. Ph...As a patient, this thread has been eye-opening. Physician shadowing? Who knew! I had no idea that students as young as high schoolers, plus college undergrads unsure of their futures, might be watching doctors examine me as if I were a guinea pig to be studied for the shadower's edification. No thanks. I value the right to talk to my doctor in private more than I value any perceived duty I might have to be an unwitting career counselor to "student doctors."Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4968787219619380438.post-11709994221619643342015-08-08T20:22:17.596-04:002015-08-08T20:22:17.596-04:00Anonymous, I also worked as an orderly during the ...Anonymous, I also worked as an orderly during the summer between two of my college years. I agree it was a good experience and was much better than shadowing. I don't think the position of orderly even exist any longer. To be a patient care technician, one must take a course. It may be more difficult to obtain a position similar to what we did is orderlies.Skeptical Scalpelhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13206922456661320751noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4968787219619380438.post-53843841989414677962015-08-08T18:47:19.337-04:002015-08-08T18:47:19.337-04:00I worked as a hospital orderly during the summers...I worked as a hospital orderly during the summers of 2 pre med years and also between the non clinical med school years.<br />Initially we were required to complete a 6 week training course on basic nursing skills etc. <br />We worked under an RN and could place foley catheters in non complicated patients. There was exposure to all hospital departments including the morgue as we were the ones who washed the deceased and transported them to the morgue. <br />Among other skills I gave bedbaths,enemas,fed patients ,cleaned up the mess and overall had a blast!<br />I got to know the patient's feelings and fears and learned much from the RNs and other health professionals.It was from a much different perspective than as an MD....<br />The experience made me a better person and in the end a very compassionate physician.<br />There were a few other fellows who did the same but realized early on they were not "cut out" for the profession.<br /><br />I think this should would be a much better way of exposing a pre med student to the medical field.<br />If I were on the admission committee I would give any candidate with such experience a bonus point!<br />BTW I became a urologist....Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4968787219619380438.post-65270828628573060752015-07-21T11:31:08.032-04:002015-07-21T11:31:08.032-04:00Warmsocks, thank you for the information. Pt is a ...Warmsocks, thank you for the information. Pt is a liittle different than most specialties of medicine. PT is about activities with at least some clothes on. EMT is interesting. I guess people who are injured or acutely sick are less inclined to wonder who is lurking in the background. You are right about being a scribe. I have mixed feelings about it for the doctor, but it is good for the scribe who is interested in medicine or already in med school.Skeptical Scalpelhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13206922456661320751noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4968787219619380438.post-82673276795131315222015-07-20T13:49:35.202-04:002015-07-20T13:49:35.202-04:00Shadowing is sometimes called observing, and other...Shadowing is sometimes called <i>observing</i>, and other fields do require it. Students applying to DPT school must document observation hours in a variety of physical therapy settings (inpatient, outpatient clinic, other ie nursing, home health, etc). The minimum I've seen is 80. Most programs require at least 120, and strongly recommend well over 400 observation hours. Also, some teaching programs require 80 observation hours of applicants. Our local EMT program requires observation hours before students are admitted to the program. Engineers don't require shadowing, but engineering students are required to do an internship. Those are the fields I know for sure about.<br /><br />As for patients having a say, my daughter's rheumatologist once introduced someone shadowing her. He silently stood by the door and observed. The dr did the exam as normal, and occasionally explained things to the shadow. I suppose we could have objected to the shadow's presence, but we would love to see more rheumatologists so if someone applying to med school wanted to know more about the field, we thought it was great. OTOH, we would definitely object to someone shadowing ob/gyn.<br /><br />In medicine, it seems like there are better ways to get a feel for the field than shadowing. My niece is pre-med and works as a scribe for her local ER. After three years she is the program supervisor, and has gotten a fairly good idea of what an ER doc's work is like -- much more realistically than if she just followed someone around for a week.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4968787219619380438.post-86794527805467775372015-07-11T04:00:51.024-04:002015-07-11T04:00:51.024-04:00International Medical Aid is a non-profit organiza...International Medical Aid is a non-profit organization striving to improve access to medical and public health resources in the world’s impoverished areas. Basic healthcare is a universal human right, yet millions of individuals around the world lack access to even elemental medical and wellness services. International Medical Aid is a broad-based non-profit organization striving to improve access to medical and public health resources in the world’s most impoverished areas through fully staffed and strategically deployed mobile healthcare campaigns. Built on values of integrity, mutual respect and commitment to the communities we serve, International Medical Aid is pioneering the new standard for medical non-profits around the world. Here are avail overseas hospital volunteer , premed volunteering , predentistry experience , premed programs , <a href="http://www.medicalaid.org/" rel="nofollow">prehealth experience</a> , hospital volunteer work , pre-medical missions , volunteer abroad for med school , premed study abroad and nursing volunteer work.elson cadehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04601989980404314891noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4968787219619380438.post-41537082053462072872015-07-09T14:52:31.721-04:002015-07-09T14:52:31.721-04:00The vet shadowing story proves my point...does any...The vet shadowing story proves my point...does anyone think you can get a full appreciation of anal gland problems just by reading a bunch of blogs?artigerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13361655152970244221noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4968787219619380438.post-66173806888294210532015-07-09T12:44:06.703-04:002015-07-09T12:44:06.703-04:00That's a good story. The other thing about sha...That's a good story. The other thing about shadowing a veterinarian is that the animals are unlikely to ask who the stranger in the room is or to complain.Skeptical Scalpelhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13206922456661320751noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4968787219619380438.post-23661582168608485092015-07-09T10:40:00.709-04:002015-07-09T10:40:00.709-04:00I don't know about human medicine, but in vete...I don't know about human medicine, but in veterinary medicine where I work shadowing is not required but it is highly recommended. I'm an LVT and the doctor I worked with was very open to shadowing. The students were introduced to clients as an undergraduate student interested in vet med and were not allowed to do anything but observe. On one memorable occasion the Dr. had two students shadowing her for morning appointments, the first appointment was for anal gland expression and the second appointment was for an anal gland abscess, Both students left that day with a comment along the lines of "Thank you for giving me the chance to realize this is not what I want to do before I spent 250k on Vet School."Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4968787219619380438.post-32353605690906994422015-07-07T08:28:01.801-04:002015-07-07T08:28:01.801-04:00Artiger, I'm surprised I outlasted you.
Anon,...Artiger, I'm surprised I outlasted you.<br /><br />Anon, thanks for commenting.Skeptical Scalpelhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13206922456661320751noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4968787219619380438.post-51588523508960130152015-07-06T21:37:55.208-04:002015-07-06T21:37:55.208-04:00I don't know, I find a lot of blogs to be pret...I don't know, I find a lot of blogs to be pretty dead on. What is the biggest thing that docs need to know is out there: how much of your life is a being a clerk; how much of your life is dealing with people who will nail you if don't give them the narcotic of choice; getting up at 5 am and leaving at 7 pm; missing family adventures; medical school debt for some; having people ask you medical questions about hemorrhoids because you are an MD whether you are a pediatrician or in geriatrics; the amount of bureaucracy in medicine. That's just for starters. <br /><br />There is a lot that someone can learn. I normally don't admit to this but yes I have a "background", I'm not an MD, but I've shocked more than one doc into admitting I have a pretty good clue of what goes on. There are enough docs around who are kind enough to help share and do it honestly. Take advantage of it. I have, and have been blessed by it. Thank you to all those for the honest and accurate education. I'm grateful.<br /><br />PS This includes you Skep ... Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4968787219619380438.post-59412401292474197302015-07-06T20:39:44.902-04:002015-07-06T20:39:44.902-04:00Scalpel, that means you've watched 0.5 more ep...Scalpel, that means you've watched 0.5 more episodes than I have. artigerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13361655152970244221noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4968787219619380438.post-31483213372102500562015-07-06T11:53:03.782-04:002015-07-06T11:53:03.782-04:00I think I may have said this somewhere in another ...I think I may have said this somewhere in another post or comment, but it bears repeating. I watched exactly one episode of "ER." The ED doc had a woman in labor and called upstairs to the delivery room for forceps. That was it for me.Skeptical Scalpelhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13206922456661320751noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4968787219619380438.post-61552777140753216702015-07-06T11:21:29.877-04:002015-07-06T11:21:29.877-04:00Anon above, I hope that was a joke (about watching...Anon above, I hope that was a joke (about watching old reruns of ER). artigerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13361655152970244221noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4968787219619380438.post-85275087301624273032015-07-06T11:02:25.488-04:002015-07-06T11:02:25.488-04:00If you want to see what being a doctor is like, wa...If you want to see what being a doctor is like, watch old reruns of ER. The procedures are fairly accurate as are the drugs and their dosages.<br /><br />I agree with "anon" that said it is nothing but "a pointless exercise that favors rich kids. . ." <br /><br />I would have learned WAY more if somebody had spoken to me about the REAL business of medicine. But, even that would not deter those of means--many who graduate with little to no debt.<br /><br />But, again, I'm REALLY jaded.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4968787219619380438.post-69319956312876431342015-07-06T10:12:57.541-04:002015-07-06T10:12:57.541-04:00Respectfully, I wasn't trying to disprove your...Respectfully, I wasn't trying to disprove your point. It's one thing to aspire to be something, but knowing what it's like to be that something is another. And reading a bunch of blogs or books isn't going to let you know what it's really like. If that were the case, medical students could just read without seeing patients. <br /><br />I aspire to be a chef. I watch Geoffrey Zakarian, Bobby Flay, and a host of others all the time, and read a lot of their blogs. I don't think I'm getting a real idea of their lives just by what I see on TV or read. <br /><br />I simply had a good experience with shadowing, but I certainly see the negatives. artigerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13361655152970244221noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4968787219619380438.post-4465957532904987332015-07-05T10:24:44.704-04:002015-07-05T10:24:44.704-04:00"I take exception with one of the above comme..."I take exception with one of the above comments about going 'through the tons of blogs out there and get a really good idea of what being a doctor is like.' Its foolish to think that would be true for being a physician, a nurse, an astronaut, professional athlete, soldier, or president, or anything else. I can't believe someone actually wrote that."<br /><br />I have to disagree with you on this. I'm not sure anyone is routinely shadowing "an astronaut, professional athlete, soldier, or president." Yet there are many people aspiring to all of those positions. <br /><br />I think you just proved my point.Skeptical Scalpelhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13206922456661320751noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4968787219619380438.post-40642503084180272952015-07-04T14:24:24.572-04:002015-07-04T14:24:24.572-04:00I take exception with one of the above comments ab...I take exception with one of the above comments about going "through the tons of blogs out there and get a really good idea of what being a doctor is like.". Its foolish to think that would be true for being a physician, a nurse, an astronaut, professional athlete, soldier, or president, or anything else. I can't believe someone actually wrote that. <br /><br />Be that as it may, shadowing has to take a back seat to patient wishes and privacy. I recall back in my premed days, when one of my best friend's father was the solo surgeon in my rural town. He was nice enough to let me shadow him, but I was also employed as an orderly at the hospital, so I was in the building in an official capacity. I was quite surprised at how people were more than willing to allow me to be present during procedures and exams. Many of them were people I knew. Of course, we also asked permission, and if there was any problem I simply stayed away. <br /><br />But to the point...it was an extremely positive thing for me in realizing that I wanted to be a surgeon, and specifically, a general surgeon in a small town, which is not exactly a popular choice these days. Had I not had that exposure early on, I might very well have taken a different career path. <br /><br />But again, to be clear, patient preference trumps all. It doesn't hurt to ask though. You might be surprised how many patients are willing to help contribute to the future of health care. artigerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13361655152970244221noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4968787219619380438.post-49802139056272793572015-07-03T13:27:03.293-04:002015-07-03T13:27:03.293-04:00All 5 new comments are appreciated. I think that s...All 5 new comments are appreciated. I think that shadowing could be misleading. I doubt that most docs would show a student the negative aspects of medicine. That's why I would welcome an in-depth study. Also, the patients' position needs to be considered.Skeptical Scalpelhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13206922456661320751noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4968787219619380438.post-2907747641597331032015-07-03T12:29:07.347-04:002015-07-03T12:29:07.347-04:00We've got two different things going here: 1) ...We've got two different things going here: 1) Whether shadowing can be helpful and 2) How to do shadowing correctly and ethically. From my experience shadowing and being shadowed, and that of the almost-medical student above, I think it's helpful. Do some people make insensitive, stupid decisions? So what else is new? Is the process itself helpful? I think so. I don't think reading about medicine gives one the same flavor as being in the trenches. Isn't the question more whether one wants to take care of people in that environment, rather than how other people describe the environment in writing? If it looks bad from reading about it, don't do it. If it still looks good, shadow someone and see if it works for you. I think you have to be there to really understand.RobertL39noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4968787219619380438.post-43277834014957356402015-07-02T23:32:37.999-04:002015-07-02T23:32:37.999-04:00RobertL39, how about having them do the "scut...RobertL39, how about having them do the "scut" work or the computer work? They can read on the internet boatloads of medical students and premed stuff, they don't have to shadow a doctor. They can imitate that without patient EHR access. <br /><br />I have to admit, I was to have been the doctor of the family. I figured out from reading, the attitude and atmosphere was not for me. There is no excuse or reason that someone can't go through the tons of blogs out there and get a really good idea of what being a doctor is like. Ask questions, good and bad (especially the bad, you are better prepared). Stop watching TV and talk to retired docs, docs in their first 5 years, doctors at 15 years, doctors who work for hospitals, contracted doctors, free lancers. If you can't do that homework and that amount of reading, you shouldn't be a doctor. If you don't network and learn from those before you (which that investigation I just put requires), don't become a doctor. That's what you are going to get your first year, they don't call it trying to drink from a fire hose for nothing.<br /><br />Most of all, if you can't and a practicing HCP can't or won't, represent yourselves honestly, you are a danger to yourself, the patient, and the MD & potentially the hospital/practice. Ask a risk manager or the HIPAA person after they've recovered from the heart attack. It would take one thing to go wrong and a lawsuit to find that someone was in there for to the doc & hospital to be left high and dry. <br /> <br />Read Joan Rivers case and who was in the room ... Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4968787219619380438.post-87702014713294999622015-07-02T23:18:20.065-04:002015-07-02T23:18:20.065-04:00Chris Porter, do you put what you are doing to the...Chris Porter, do you put what you are doing to the hospital? You are technically lying to the patient if you are saying future doctor X when they are not in medical school. Have you told the hospital and the like you are doing this? You malpractice people? Your HIPAA liaison? Consider how your family would feel when they are vulnerable and then someone lies to them. Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4968787219619380438.post-42817374010046240112015-07-02T23:12:50.858-04:002015-07-02T23:12:50.858-04:00webhillizzy, I'm concerned because you said &q...webhillizzy, I'm concerned because you said "as a child" and "OB". One of the reasons people mistrust doctors is because that situation was totally inappropriate. I could repeat what you said and people would go gangbusters. The doctor lied to the patients by saying you were a student and you were not an enrolled medical school student. With all due respect, there are boatloads of violations that could have been leveled at the hospital and the doctor. What doctors refuse to understand (a number of them) is that we are due specifics as to who is in there in our private moments, and not to put it in such a way that we are stuck with someone there. I've had it done to me, and at times it is ok, at others, I have stated not. <br /><br />What many patients would find offensive is that you didn't state plainly who you were and asked their permission. There are those who don't mind, but that you didn't respect others (including that doctor) says volumes about the medical mindset and why there are so many patients who despise doctors. <br /><br />I'm stating this as a point of view from us, patients. Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4968787219619380438.post-28562045336875934502015-07-02T16:50:32.261-04:002015-07-02T16:50:32.261-04:00As a child, I was privileged to be brought along w...As a child, I was privileged to be brought along with an OB friend of the family to the ER on more than one occasion, to see patients while he was on call. I was introduced by my physician friend to the patient as "a student of mine," and I do not suspect I was thought by anyone to be an actual med student during the first few of these visits because I was still in high school and did not look very old. No one ever complained about my presence though of course I do not know how they felt about it inside. Of course I never TOUCHED anyone or anything and stood quietly on the side of the room, observing. <br /><br />As a patient, I have always encouraged anyone introduced to me as a student to participate fully to the extent of his/her abilities and legal permissions. I feel this is important. The only time I rejected the presence of a medical student was during one of my labors, when they asked if a student could come in at a particular moment and I blew up at the asker... I apologized later though. I actually wasn't against the student coming in, I was just against carrying on any conversation of any kind at that moment, LOL. If someone wanted to bring in a pre-med student to one of my office calls or hospital-based procedures or whatever, I would be fine with that, as long as they were kept to the side.<br /><br />As a professional (I'm a veterinarian), I enjoy having young students come in to observe. Their questions keep me on my toes!webhillizzyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03640315303695619477noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4968787219619380438.post-23324277104509919712015-07-02T12:24:16.942-04:002015-07-02T12:24:16.942-04:00The three most recent comments above highlight the...The three most recent comments above highlight the issues very nicely. If a student shadowed a burned out doc, she might be unduly discouraged. Emily gives us the patient's point of view. The anonymous student had a very positive experience. Take your choice. Skeptical Scalpelhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13206922456661320751noreply@blogger.com